Vital Signs (Aired 01-16-2025) Overcoming Grief: A Journey of Strength and Resilience

[00:00:30] Speaker A: Welcome to Vital Signs. I'm your host, Jen Goday, and today we're going to dive deep into a sort of deep conversation about grief. Our topic is one of one of tremendous loss, followed by resilience, and finally how to come back out of that. So I want to give a little bit of a trigger warning. This may be an emotional episode. Please be sure to take care of yourself in whatever way you need. But without further ado, I'm going to introduce our amazing guest today, Mason Sawyer. Welcome to the show. [00:01:08] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me here. [00:01:11] Speaker A: So, Mason, you have one heck of a story. I was fortunate enough to hear you speak about it on stage a couple months ago, and I thought maybe we can set the stage, give us a little bit of an insight into where you were and what happened so that we can sort of get a grasp on how you got to where you are today. [00:01:37] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the quick version would be I was happily married to my high school sweetheart, Courtney Atkinson, and we had three kids together, Riggins, Blue, and Frankie. And I was a basketball trainer. I love playing basketball. And so I worked in southern Utah as a basketball trainer, and then I was coaching a basketball tournament. And so I could not go to a family reunion that we were doing over the summer. But my wife took our kids and went, and my brother Race and his youngest son, Ryder went with my family because it's obviously the same family reunion, so they all travel together. Foreign. [00:02:52] Speaker A: Welcome to Vital Signs. I'm your host, Jen Goday, and today we're going to dive deep into a sort of deep conversation about grief. Our topic is one of one of tremendous loss, followed by resilience and finally how to come back out of that. So I want to give a little bit of a trigger warning. This may be an emotional episode. Please be sure to take care of yourself in whatever way you need. But without further ado, I'm going to introduce our amazing guest today, Mason Sawyer. Welcome to the show. [00:03:30] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me. Excited to be here. [00:03:33] Speaker A: So, Mason, you have one heck of a story. I was fortunate enough to hear you speak about it on stage a couple months ago, and I thought maybe we can set the stage, give us a little bit of an insight into where you were and what happened so that we can sort of get a grasp on how you got to where you are today. [00:03:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I think the. The quick version would be I was happily married to my high school sweetheart, Courtney Atkinson, and we had three kids together, Riggins, Blue, and Frankie. And I was a basketball trainer. I loved playing basketball and so I worked in Southern Utah as a basketball trainer and then I was coaching a basketball tournament. And so I could not go to a family reunion that we were doing over the summer. But my wife took our kids and went and my brother Race and his youngest son Ryder went with my family because it's obviously the same family reunion. So they all travel together in our car. And on the way back from that family vacation, there was a big sandstorm. It blanketed the highway, it caused the 22 car pile up and it killed eight people total. And five of those eight people were my family. And I lost my wife Courtney, my son Riggins, my daughter Frankie, my brother Race, my nephew Ryder were all killed. And my three year old son Blue survived the, the car accident. And that was July 25, 2021, so about three and a half years ago. And yeah, that's what we, me and my son, that's what we've been battling ever since. [00:05:28] Speaker A: And I'm so sorry for your loss. And I know, like, this is a tremendous, it gives me chills when I hear this because it is a parent's greatest fear to lose a child. And you not only went through that, but the person who you loved more than anything and your brother. So talk to me a little bit about the initial days because grief is something that we all experience at some point in time in our lives and it looks different for everyone. But talk to me a little bit about what, what that looked like for you initially after that. And how did you take that call? How were you there for your son Blue? [00:06:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I remember I got the phone call and the guy's like, there's been a car accident, there's one survivor. And I'm just like, what? Like I didn't, didn't really any think anything like this was possible, to be honest with you. It was just in so much shock and denial at first. When you're kind of just flipping through all the stages of grief, I. Anger, denial, bargaining. I went through months of just bargaining and then acceptance is in there a little bit. But it was hard. I just, I didn't know what to do. I lost everything. I lost the girl I loved. I lost losing a kid. I mean, having a kid is one of the best things I've ever. But losing a kid because of my son Blue. And so Blue was the main reason that got me through those beginning stages of grief. Blue saved me. He gave purpose to my pain and my love for Blue kept me going. And I mean, it's been three Years, Jen. But the shock and the anger and all those stages are still there. I mean, there's days I wake up and I can't really accept it. And those are my, my hard days that I just feel sorry for myself, miss them. And being happy just feels wrong. Sometimes I just want to be sad. And so it's been a hard transition. [00:07:41] Speaker A: And you know, anyone who's listening to this who has gone through, has lost someone very dear to them, has gone through this as well. And a lot of times we have a lot of people who flood in immediately and there's a lot of support immediately after something happens and that wanes over time. But our process is a journey and it's not like it happens in the first couple of weeks when we have all that influx of support. It can feel really isolating. It can feel overwhelming. When you no longer had that influx of support and you were in that isolated, overwhelmed sensation, how are you able to pull from yourself, from that deep well so that you could continue to show up for Blue? Because those are, those are some things that would be really valuable for people who are moving through similar processes. [00:08:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I do remember probably the first six months there were just people everywhere all the time. And my support group is a huge reason why I've been able to keep going. And a lot of people don't have the support group that I have. I've been blessed with that way. But yeah, around the six month mark, people kind of went back to their daily routine and right through school. But for me, my daily routine was my family and they weren't here anymore. I think the first year it was, I would just cope with lots of alcohol and drug any way I could just numb the pain. And I just like, not only did I lose them and they were gone and, and that was hard, but now I lost my, my life. Like, I couldn't be a father to Blue. The way I was behaving, the way I was coping, I couldn't be present for him. And so it's kind of like in a way too. Like I was just a zombie. And so I knew like for Blue to be a good dad again, I had to, I had to face this thing. I couldn't just numb it and try to run away from it anymore. I knew I had to face it. And for me, I guess what I mean by facing it was talking about it. I had to talk and cry about it and I just couldn't. For probably the first year, I couldn't look at pictures of them. I couldn't Talk about them. It made it hurt so, so much worse. So I just tried to numb it, and it made everything worse. And then therapy helped me realize that I need to talk about it. And then when I started talking about it, man, that chance gave me my. [00:10:13] Speaker A: Life back, I'm sure. And, you know, many people struggle to reach out to find that support, like therapy or grief support groups. How did you find the courage to actually start to talk to it? Because I think you now share this experience, you share this story, and you're a tremendous resource for people going through this. But for those who are in that, I'm really afraid I don't know how to open up. It hurts so much. How. Do you have any advice for how they can start to open up and share their story? [00:10:49] Speaker B: Yeah, I think. I think the person. I mean, my wife Courtney, she was a fighter. She helped people. So my brother Race was a. He was a. He would never give up. So I just knew, like, I think the best way to honor them would be to try to live a good life again and not just wallow in my pity. And every time I talk to them spiritually through, you know, meditation or prayer, whatever you want to call it, you know, they always tell me to keep going and to be happy. And that's one of the hardest parts of grief. Being sad and miserable is easy. That's. That's the easy part. Trying to feel worthy, to be happy again, that's been really. [00:12:04] Speaker A: Welcome back to Vital Signs. If you're just tuning in, you are going to want to go to NowMedia TV click on shows and catch the first segment of today's show. We are diving deep into a very deep topic. Grief. And we are here with Mason Sawyer. Before the break, he was sharing about losing his wife and a couple of his children, his brother, in a really horrendous accident and the grief process. But, Mason, I want to now shift the narrative, because out of this unimaginative, like, I just can't even fathom the amount of tragedy that you had. You have created a platform of hope. Can you talk to me a little bit about how you use your story to inspire others to keep going? And what does that look like for you in your healing process? [00:12:56] Speaker B: Well, I started going to therapy, and my therapist is like, you know, Mason, everyone would understand if you weren't handling this well, but you have an opportunity here. And I hated it when he said opportunity because, like, this is my family. Like, not. There's nothing good about this. But he said, mason, you have an opportunity to Help people. And he said, tomorrow someone's gonna lose a spouse or a son or a daughter or a brother or a sister or a niece or a nephew, and you can relate and help all of them. And I knew that trying to do something good with something so awful was the right thing to do. I just didn't know how to do that. Like, okay, like, how do I help people? And I just felt completely alone after it happened. I mean, I could be in a room full of 100 people, but I just feel so alone and didn't feel like anyone understood me. I just didn't have. I just didn't. But I lost my fan. I didn't know where to belong. I was just so lost and broken. And starting this podcast was kind of like, what I mean, like, I wish there was. I knew about the 1090 podcast after my accident. Like, I just. No one likes to talk about death and grief. No one likes to talk about it in our society. We're all scared of it. Well, we all want things that make us live longer for as long as we can to put it off as much as possible. And I'm over here just thinking about death 24 7, and I just felt like an alien. And man podcasting a guy, Craig, in Australia, he lost his wife and two kids in a car accident. I've met a lady in Kansas City. She lost husband, two kids, and a mom from a tornado. So I just started connecting with all these people who are going through terrible stories just like me. I'm just as bad some birth. And it was very humbling for me. And I went from thinking no one knew how I felt to realizing, oh, like, we're all hurting. We're all going to experience grief at some point. And many of us are. We're not talking about it. And that's been one of the biggest things for my podcast. It's not necessarily what I'm saying. Like, I don't think I'm saying anything new that no one's heard before, but it's just the feeling of sitting down with something that. And sitting down with someone who feels it that can relate to you has been so powerful for me. I hope I answered your question. [00:15:40] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, you absolutely did. And so I'm going to ask you, because you've been doing this for a while and you're gaining traction, and you've kind of created a doorway for people to sit in on a grief support and so hope. So at this point in time, what message are you hoping to put forth with your podcast? What are you hoping to do for the people who are listening and following and taking in the content that you're putting out? Like, what is that message that you really want them to receive? [00:16:17] Speaker B: I think you're not alone is a big one. And talking of feeling it, don't. Don't try to not feel it. You got to feel it. And that's the hardest part of acceptance, is accepting it doesn't make the pain go away. Accepting it, I. I think, in my opinion, is the most pain. But through acceptance, you're able to have some control over the pain. You're able to start a podcast or talk about it or go back to work or. I mean, you can do a thousand different things. I think that's what acceptance helped me do, is it's helped. It's helped me get my power back and have some control over it. But, I mean, I tell people who come on my podcast, there's no agenda. We have no expectations. We don't plan to talk about anything. The conversation will go wherever it goes. And then we end with our top three favorite movies, just to try to end with a laugh and something not so serious for our listeners. So they can. Walking to work, not crying or whatever it is, but that's it. I. I just, My goal is to hold space with them. There's. There's no right or wrong with what stage or phase you're in with grief. I think the important thing is talking about it and creating a podcast like that. Every time I have someone on, there's someone out there that can relate to it. Someone. I mean, it might not be me, but someone can relate to their type of story and their type of pain and. And that's. I think that's what I'm trying to do. Just gather as much stories as I can of how people are handling grief, what they're doing with their 90%, what's working, what's not working, and starting a community. [00:17:55] Speaker A: And so how can people watch your podcast? How can they access it? Where can they find it? [00:18:01] Speaker B: Yes, we're on all the major platforms, so Apple, Spotify, we have a YouTube channel. So I think if you type in 1090 and you really want to find us, it should be pretty easy to find us. But, yeah, I think we're in a lot of different areas. [00:18:21] Speaker A: And so when I heard you speak before, and you kind of mentioned this in your story earlier, but I really want to emphasize this. You talked about how when we first are in that immense grief, we numb the pain, but when we numb the pain, we Numb everything else. And so can you kind of dive into how that. That and that acceptance and that honoring what's going on and feeling your emotions allows you to actually move forward and feel other things? Because I think some people watching this may really need to hear your message. And I don't want to share how you said it. I want them to hear it from you. [00:19:00] Speaker B: No, I think. I think the. The gift of grief. I know that sounds weird, but there's so many things I've learned from it, and I've grown tremendously because of it. But all those good parts of the grief are in the same spots as the terrible parts. Meaning, like, you have to talk about it, you have to cry, you. You have to feel the pain of being completely broken. But what comes with that is the memories of. I get to remember how good we had and all the fun we had, and. And when you numb the pain, it's gonna come back and it's gonna be worse. And then you also forgive them. You don't remember the love and the joy you have. You just feel the pain. There's nothing good about it. I think a good metaphor is the buffalo and cows analogy. When cows sense a storm, they run away from it. They just start running. And when the storm catches up to them, they're so scared, they won't stop running. Just stop running and let the storm pass. No. They are so tired, but they keep running because they're scared. And now they're running with the storm, and they're in it much longer than they ever had to be. Buffalo, they face the storm, they head right into it. And, yeah, the message of the buffalo is the storm passes over quickly, but with grief, the storm never ends. It's a storm that will last you the rest of your life. But if you're a buffalo and you face the storm, that's when you get the good parts of it. The cows don't get the good parts. They just get the bad part of the storm. And I think that's one thing I've realized as I've shifted into talking about it. Crying about it is I feel awful. But I also feel love again and joy again. And I think that's a big part of the 1090 message. [00:21:00] Speaker A: I love it. And if we numb. If we numb it, we don't get to feel the joy that we have here. And what an amazing role model for your son as he also processes through this. He's witnessing your strength, your vulnerability. He's witnessing you're going through the motions and making it okay. And making it a safe space to experience emotions. So I just want to thank you today for sharing your story and for sharing really your message of hope, because that's what it is. When we're in the thick of grief, it's very hard to see that shining hope. But when we open ourselves to feeling all the emotions, we can really solidify the positive pieces, the joyful moments, the love, the amazingness that happened. And while you're right, grief never does actually go away. It's always with us to some extent, and it will get us from time to time. There's always the positive aspect of it as well. And I know your story is going to resonate with so many. So thank you for sharing again once more your website. If people are looking to get in touch with you, if they'd like to have you on their podcast, their show, if they'd like to listen to your podcast, what's the best way for them to reach you? [00:22:11] Speaker B: Yeah, our Instagram, the 1090 rule. And then we do have a website. If you're interested on being on my podcast or if you want me to be on your podcast, I would go to our website or our Instagram page. [00:22:24] Speaker A: Awesome. And that's the ten90.com, the website and ten90 on Instagram. Thank you so much for sharing with us today and for the heart and what you're doing and how you've turned your grief into your newest passion. And that's grief creating support and hope for others. [00:22:40] Speaker B: Thank you so much, Jen. [00:22:41] Speaker A: Absolutely. And you. Yes, you. Unfortunately, we do have to take a brief break, but you're not going to want to miss what's coming next. You asked about a deeper dive into some of the ways that we can see what's happening with our children and prevent potential sexual abuse issues. And that is coming immediately after the break, so stick around. [00:23:30] Speaker B: Foreign. [00:23:36] Speaker A: Welcome back to Vital Signs. If you're just tuning in, you're going to want to catch the first half of Today's episode at NowMedia TV. Click on shows code of Vital signs and you will be able to be caught up with where we are today. And if not, get ready, buckle your seat belts because we are going to shift gears a little bit. I have returning to studio today, Carrie David. Sorry, yes. Carrie David and her film Open Secret is a documentary about sexual abuse in our communities and in regards to our children. And when she was on before, so many of you reached out to me with more questions, so I had to bring her back on. I'm really pleased to welcome Carrie Back to the studio. Thank you for joining us again. [00:24:23] Speaker C: Oh, Jen, it's a pleasure. And I'm thrilled that people were engaged enough to want to. Want to go deeper and ask questions. I will help in any way I can. [00:24:30] Speaker A: So, Carrie, I want to just back up. For anybody who maybe didn't catch the first time that you were on, tell us a little bit about your project OpenSecret and the process and some of the things that you went through along that way. [00:24:44] Speaker C: Sure, yeah. So Open Secret is a documentary. It initially was to capture what seemed like racial discrimination in a school district. And really all I did was go down there and agree to meet with some of the key players. But before long, we realized actually there was a. A much deeper story here where there had been widespread sexual abuse of children. And it had been going on for decades, and so many adults knew about it and said nothing. And so from that, it became a story about how a small group of courageous residents united to basically take on this corrupt system for a safer tomorrow and to seeking justice and accountability for the children and the families in their community. But it's been a five year journey, and so we are now hoping to release this year we're raising the last 20% of our funds. We're looking to get 120,000. We're at 70,000. So if anybody wants to chip in, that would be great. You can donate or you can invest. But the journey is about trying to not only tell an engaging story of what these families went through and what these courageous residents did in order to overturn what was happening, it's all sort of spread awareness throughout the nation. We're going to really get behind this film. And if we have to carry on our backs from, you know, community to community, then we will. But it is so important. And with everything flaring up in the news right now about how children are being abused and how they're being trafficked, you know, with the whole celebrity angle that just came out recently, not to mention any names, it couldn't be a more timely film. And for us it's, yes, we're telling stories that are very dramatic. However, the point of this is, you know, this is happening under our noses in our communities. It's not a Hollywood problem, it's not an overseas problem. It's happening right now under our noses. And, and our film will hopefully give an audience tools to recognize what's happening, to address it, take it on and prevent it. And basically what we wanna do is we wanna prevent abuse in all schools, not just the schools. District where we focused on. [00:26:50] Speaker A: And I'm so grateful that you're bringing this to light because it's a really deep topic. And honestly, it's a topic that we're afraid to talk about. And. And we kind of hide it under the cupboard. In the cupboard and pretend it doesn't exist unless it happens to us specifically. And when you were on the last time and to everyone who's watching, I just want you to know that Carrie is a filmmaker. She's not a psychotherapist. So definitely there's resources. But she does have resources and is compiling those resources as well, so you can reach out to her. But this is not medical advice. But one of the topics that we talked about the last time you were on was grooming. And there were a lot of questions. And what is grooming? And what does that look like? And what are some red flags that I, as a parent or as somebody who's responsible for a child, can look for that might say, oh, hey, this might be going on. [00:27:45] Speaker C: Yeah, it's a great question, because I think the word grooming is thrown around, and people think they understand what it means, but really, it's a really grotesque part of the tools that a predator will use. And to touch on what you just said, you know, we don't want to look at this. We don't want to talk about it. And what I've realized on this journey is that predators rely on that. They rely on good people not talking about it. And that's why it's so much more important to talk about it and to look at it and then. And then get rid of it. Grooming, what grooming is, it's a way to befriend the family and the community before the predator even looks at the child. So first of all, the child will be spotted by the pred. We can talk about the kind of things that predators look for in a child that make them vulnerable. But in terms of grooming, it is uncanny how many of these predators, certainly in the. In the area where we were filming, were teacher of the year. And it puts a slur on those who. Teachers who really were great teachers and really did have good intentions. But if I can tell you that, you'll get an idea of what these people do when they groom. They want to befriend the family and be like an amazing person and go out of their way to be helpful and in the community as well. So first they will groom the community, you know, and maybe that's volunteering at church, volunteering at all of these school events, maybe it's volunteering to take your child to school when you can't do it. Not to school, maybe to a game or pick it up to be like overly helpful, which is heinous in several reasons, which is that, you know, you want a community to be made up of people like that and you don't want to doubt anyone who's offering that kind of help when perhaps you need it as a family. But this day and age, unfortunately, we just don't have the luxury to think that everyone's doing it out of the best intentions of their heart. Because at the end of the day, your child is the most important thing here. And if that means you have to offend a couple of people to keep your child safe, I think we're at a point in time that that's just unfortunately where we are. So, so basically that is grooming. Once they've done the community and they've shown themselves to be an excellent person, everyone's going to be like, oh, what a great teacher, what a great coach. Fill in the blank. Then it's the family. Then it becomes more personal. You get at home and it's like, oh, tell me about your problems. You know, they've come like a best friend, if you will. And then once they feel comfortable that if anybody was to ever accuse them of doing something as heinous as going after a child, they will think so well of them that they will. This is where, this is where victim blaming comes in. They will go and say, oh, well, that victim must be lying. Right? So that, that's pretty much what grooming is. But let me know if I can go deeper or be more specific. [00:30:23] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that was fantastic. And then the follow up question is, how can parents recognize if their child, like, what are the reds, the subtle signs? Because it might be subtle. What are the things that we will see if our child is being groomed? Like what are some of the behaviors to look for? And I think it would be really helpful to differentiate normal adult behaviors with children versus what happens when a child is being groomed. [00:30:50] Speaker C: Yeah, that is a big question. Because of course children have different personalities. You know, you have your extroverts and then you have your introverts and you have everything in between. You have your neurodivergent. I mean, there are so many different children. So when I say this, I think the first thing you know, if you even have a suspicion that something's not right going on at school with your child, it's because their behavior is going to change. You know, maybe they were. Maybe they're acting out, right? So they don't actually become withdrawn, but they actually act out in ways that is unusual for your child. And of course, vice versa. Maybe they're an extrovert and they start to just, you know, go inward and they lock themselves in their rooms and they don't want to talk, they don't want to eat. Maybe there's a control thing that comes up. They have no control at school that's going on with this situation with their abuser. And so they'll come home and they'll control something else, whether that's their food intake. And it can also be like overeating. So there are so many points. This is why it's a challenging thing to recognize, getting together with your family. And even if this is the first point, like, maybe you've all got very busy lives, but maybe today is the day you decide, you know, we're gonna make a point of, like, getting together. Maybe it's at the dinner table, maybe it's at the drive on the way home from school, whenever you have that moment where you are not distracted by your day job and the child is engaged with you. And then you can have gently probing questions. And so this isn't, you know, oh, are you being abused at school, Jimmy? That's too big. And very few children will respond to that. But you can ask probing questions, which is like, did you have a happy day today? And if they say no, you're like, oh, what contributed to you not being happy? So there's subtle questions. You don't want to go straight in for the kill, so to speak. But you do want to find. You want to open up a language and a trust between your child to let them know, listen, if anything is going on at school. Maybe to start off, are you being bullied at school? You know, is there a teacher who you feel doesn't like you? Is there a teacher who likes you too much? If you start having these conversations where the conversation itself becomes comfortable, then when something is out of order, when something is extreme, like an abuse situation going on, it's not such a difficult conversation to go. It's just one step further. So maybe today is the day that you start carving out time to say, hey, we're going to have this time one on one, just to talk about our days. And you can also share with your child, you know, what also comes into play is how old is that child? You know, we've had a child as young as seven, and then of course, all the way up to 15 and 16 even. So it really just depends on what your relationship is with that child at that point of engagement. But the most important thing I think for a parent to be able to say to the child is I am a safe space for whatever you say. And if you share something with me, I'm not immediately going to take it anywhere further. You and I will discuss it until you and I feel like we're at a place where we want to take it further so that they know that if they say one thing, it's not all the way to the superintendent's office. And now you're being confronted by everything that's going on that's too big. So provide a safe space for your child. [00:34:04] Speaker A: You know, I think that's so incredibly important. And I just want to kind of summarize a couple of things that you said before we go to break. And that's some of the red flags that we as parents can be looking at is a change in behavior in our child. An extroverted child who becomes introverted, an introverted child who maybe changes and is extra garrulous, somebody who's a little bit withdrawn. But when we see a behavior change in our child, that means something is generally going on. The other thing that you said is they will try to over control things like from a food standpoint or some of the other other aspects. Like they try to take back control of their life in a way. And that immediately takes me to like, you know, temper tantrums and toddlers, like that's what they do. That's what a tantrum is. It's they feel out of control and so they throw that fit so that they can get something that they want. And it's maybe translated a little differently in older children. So it's important for us as parents to pay attention and to open conversations before we think there's a problem and normalize. Hey, how was your day at school? Was it a good day? Was it a bad day? Do you feel great? Do you feel sad? And sort of starting to open that conversation, we are going to dive deeper into some of the other questions that you, my audience, have asked right after these messages. Welcome back to Vital Signs where we are tackling a very challenging topic, sexual abuse in children. And we have Carrie David here who has her upcoming film Open Secret that really exposes some of this. And we've been talking Carrie a lot about sexual abuse and what does it look like and how can we kind of see if someone's Being groomed or what are our red flags? But one of the biggest questions that I got from viewers of your previous segment were how do I broach this topic? How do I educate my children on what sexual abuse even is in an age appropriate way? [00:36:32] Speaker C: Yeah, well, that is part of why we're making this film, so that there will be a tool which you can actually play this film for your family and then have the conversation. But of course, that's the cart before the horse because the film isn't finished yet. But, you know, I wanted to introduce, we briefly discussed off camera about, about churches and venues where that you can actually ask one of your community leaders to come in and have a sermon and to address this, because the less taboo this subject becomes, the more approachable it will be for you. And as, as uncomfortable as sexual assault is to discuss with your child, it is going to be far more uncomfortable if your child is. Becomes a victim of sexual assault. And I think that's something to put in the back of your head. And if I could just quickly touch on something about signs to notice, you know, maybe your child is spending too much time with an adult, you know, and listen, for us, it was a school district, but 90% of children who are molested know their molester and the predator. And so it could be a family member that is spending too much time with your child. And so there, there are signs that are obvious to look out for that aren't just you getting there with your magnifying glass going, oh, what's going on with my son or my daughter? It's like, you know, just be aware of who they are spending time with. So, yeah, if I could just throw that in there, I think that's important too. [00:37:50] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. And I mean, a big conversation or a big topic that I got was, I'm really uncomfortable bringing this forward. And maybe I'm even uncomfortable going, you suggested going to our community leaders, but if I'm uncomfortable as a parent talking about this, how do I overcome that discomfort so I can open that topic, whether it's with my child? And I think we talked in the break a little bit about gamification, so I'd love to hear about that. Or it is approaching another adult who might be a community leader. [00:38:22] Speaker C: Yeah, I think there's a lot of resources and depends if you're a mom or a dad. I think moms are perhaps more communicative with each other and maybe you are uncomfortable. But you know, some moms in a community environment that you could say, hey, can we get Together as women and talk about this. And the same with men. Can we get together as men and talk about this? Because no man or woman want their mom or dad want their child to be a victim of sexual abuse. And so it's about. Yes, it's about overcoming the. Our own distaste. And as you said much earlier, no one wants to look at this, but look at the repercussions of not looking at it. Your child becomes a victim. So I think if you file that away, there are definitely a lot of online communities that you can find. I mean, even going to Reddit and going online. And there are amazing organizations like rain, which is R A I N that have a lot of tools. And as you had again mentioned earlier, when the film comes out, we are putting together a resource on our website and we will put up there therapists that you can speak to and lawyers that you can speak to and successfully. Those lawyers who've actually successfully closed litigation against multiple institutions. And so there are places you can go and have that conversation before you bring it to your child. And I think it's also a really good point to think. I think you actually want to get comfortable talking about it before you speak to your child because the last thing you want to do is to bring your uncomfortability to that conversation, which is going to be a difficult and challenging conversation anyway. So I think there are actually a lot of resources where you can. You don't have to do it alone. That's the key of it. Did I answer a question? [00:39:59] Speaker A: Yeah, you absolutely did. You don't have to do it alone. And I think the moral of the story is we need to get comfortable as adults having this conversation. We need to take it from underneath the rug and look at it. And yeah, it's ugly. And yes, it's. We don't want to think that people will do some of these things, but the reality is we have a responsibility as parents and as community leaders to protect our children. And it takes a community to raise a child. And so it's really important that we get involved. So, Carrie, the next. The next question I'm going to ask you is your film is due to come out. You know, I know it's not quite complete yet. Can you share with us how can we follow the progress? How can we, you know, learn more about this if we want to bring this into our community for a community showing or whatnot? What might that look like? How can we reach out to you about this film? [00:40:52] Speaker C: That's a great question. Thank you for that so we have three places where you can go and see us. We have our website, which is open secret, the film dot com and we also have we funder for we funder dot com opensecret, which I have to say right now I am up updating that more than any other site. And then on that site you can become an investor. But then we also have a third site which you can access through our website, which is if just for donations, if you just want to donate to what we're doing and support us that way. So all three have a version of where we are. But as I say right now we are, yes, the we funder.com forward/opensecret. That's where we are updating most right now. But I will touch on something else through this process. I've met some incredible people who've been on a similar journey, but not in the school environment. One of them was an attorney who settled a case against the Catholic Church for $1.2 billion. And he's done a couple since then, actually. But he and I had an intense conversation about how there's a playbook of how predators act. You know, they seem to be where the children are, the grooming is the same. And so I'm actually filming him at the end of January. He's flying out to us to be filmed to be a part of this. Because we want to show that it isn't just this small environment at school or similar where your child can be at risk. And that if you start knowing the science from his perspective and what he has seen and our perspective and the people in our film, what they have seen together, you'll start to get a general idea of like, oh, okay, I see how this works. And then you can protect your children far better than you would without having known that. And one thing I wanted to say about one of my investors, his wife is a pastor in a church and she actually does give sermons about child abuse prevention, sexual abuse of prevention. And when we were speaking, she knew about the parents being groomed and she knew about the child being groomed. She didn't know that the community also gets groomed. And I said, unfortunately, that is where the victim blaming seems to come in. They set it up so well that when that time comes, and it could be years and years that they've been a predator before it actually comes up, that the community will usually back the predator because he's such a great guy, you know, or she's such a great girl, more rare. But it does happen, you know, it's. [00:43:15] Speaker A: Really, it's really kind of frightening once you open this and discover that it's been a years long process. It's some of the people who have positioned themselves in such a way that, that there is that victim blaming and shaming and, and I want to kind of ask one, one question more before we conclude because if we as adults see somebody or suspect that there is sexual abuse going on, it's. It's frowned upon to be a whistleblower. There's fear of retaliation. So how can we, what are the steps if we're an adult and we suspect this is happening to our child? Or if we're an adult and we suspect it's a colleague that's doing this? What, what is the, what is the advice that you have for that person? [00:44:04] Speaker C: Again, this is such a complicated answer. Sorry. It's a complicated question because it depends on how old is the child? What are the circumstances? Is it a family member? Is it at school, Is it at church? I mean, there are so many variables that it could play into. But the first thing you do is you take that child away from that person. Because whether it ends up being true or false, that child needs to be protected. So whoever you suspect, first make your child safe. Right? And you take the child aside. Again, depending on how old the child is, how verbal they are, have the conversation. Does this person make you uncomfortable? I've noticed things that make me uncomfortable. Can we talk about that? If it's egregious, if it is so overt and you're like, oh, this person did this thing because of the situation that we have documented, I would actually say go around the institution and go super straight to the police. In fact, what actually got this whole ball rolling, which is extraordinary and is in this extreme result that you have to do it, somebody went to the district attorney and then the district attorney called in the SBI investigation and this whole thing blew up. Hopefully you won't have to go to the district attorney. But if you can make your child safe, first of all, and keep them away from that person, that is something I would push home. And again, if it's somebody that you know, then you can say, listen, I'm uncomfortable with you touching my child in any manner right now. Can you just refrain from physically touching my child? You're not accusing anyone of sexual assault. You're saying, I don't want you to touch my child. And again, we touched on this before, you and I. Giving your child agency to protect their body is about the best gift you can give Somebody in this situation and that is, you know, gamify it, come home, have a game with your child and say, listen, we're going to play a game. I'm going to be somebody that you do not want to touch your body and I'm going to come at you, I'm going to touch you anywhere, it doesn't matter, on your arm, on your shoulder and you are going to scream as loud as you can that you don't want me to do that. I want you to scare me. And the reason that I think that this is a really good tool to practice is of course, in real life, if somebody did touch them in a way that made them uncomfortable, they wouldn't scream at the decibel level. You're encouraging them in this conversation. But they would have the confidence to shout get off me or stay away from me. And it would be enough for an adult who had ill intentions to stop because they do not want to be noticed in the grooming process. Because when it comes to the abuse itself, that's done in secrecy. But there are steps that these predators take in mainstream before they can get to that place. And you want to stop them there so that your child doesn't become a victim of that. Is that helpful? [00:46:40] Speaker A: Absolutely. I love the gamification. I love getting with our child and playing this game so that they get comfortable. Because I come from, I was in athletics and sports medicine and we rely on our highest level of training. So if our kids are used to that reaction, it's more comfortable. They will actually be vocal about it when something negative, if something negative were to occur. Thank you so much, Carrie, for your expertise. Unfortunately, we are at the end of our show but folks, I want you to definitely reach out to carrie. Check out opensecretthefilm.com that's her website. Thank you for your expertise, Carrie. I really appreciate you today. [00:47:18] Speaker C: Jen, thank you for having me on your show again. It's been a pleasure. Really appreciate you. [00:47:23] Speaker A: Yes, and you. Yes, you. I want you to take this to heart. Today is the day. Carrie gave us some very good action steps. Today's the day to start having an open conversation, conversation with our children about what is okay and what isn't. Let's start setting that boundary. Let's start having those open dinner time conversations with our children to normalize, asking about their day so that if something was out of the ordinary, they would feel comfortable coming to us as a safe space. Without further ado, we do have to end this show. But the good news is we'll be here same time, same station next week. Until then, have an amazing rest of your day. [00:48:00] Speaker B: This has been a Now Media Networks feature presentation. 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